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Flash needs to die.

2010-10-29 01:31:00 by JordanD
Updated

Before you spam, please read what i have to say.

.
/* */
This was a game made in Unity

You can also make full 3D games in Unity, and it is embeddable in the browser, just like flash. Unity is also better than flash for making 2D games, you have more control over everything, lighting, FX, 3D space, whatever.

Unity can export to Mac, PC, Wii, Xbox, PS3, iPad and iPhone. How many of you flash game developers will learn that and NOT say "Wow, i can make browser games, click an "export" button, and submit it to the iPad app store?

And websites have HTML5. Hopefully flash could get on some kind of Animation train that exports to better video, i could totally see it as a standalone animation program of some kind..?

So yeah..Flash needs to die for a better internet experience for everyone, light hardcore 3D games that run just as well as if you had bought and downloaded TF2 or whatever.

Don't fight it, and Tom you should probably start accepting unity submissions to get this internet revolution a'Rollin.

--EDIT--
Yes, I've seen Flash 3D "MoleHill", and It looks good. My main thoughts though is that Adobe doesn't treat flash as a program that makes games, it's a program for "Web content", where as Unity is designated FOR making games. We'll see though, nothing would make me happier to see Flash live, I love flash!


Comments

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JimpJimp

2010-11-05 08:15:27

Yee Unity does offer a shit load of power and features that makes it very attractive to developers, but we would need a massive shift in the community for it to simply replace Flash. The thing you need to remember about Flash is that its designed as an "all round" web tool, and for those reasons it is relatively basic. This means developers are limited, but its also really easy to make those simple games people look for in a browser, and they can be tackled by pretty much anyone with some basic programming knowledge. The amount of time that it takes to build a comparable game in Unity is huge, and although its obviously the superior technology, that doesn't mean its gonna over take Flash. I did a lot of research on this for my University Dissertation and found similaritys between the Flash Community and the early commercial video game Industry. If people do start looking to the browser for big 3D games then I think our community could very easy grow to reflect the state of the commercial industry, as we see more interest from big companies, longer development timescales and bigger teams needed to deliver 3D games.

Thats just my thoughts anyway, Flash can still suck my balls.

JordanD responds:

That will be AWESOME


Hamodey-xsHamodey-xs

2010-11-04 16:36:27

Your patchman flash sucks your dad's balls.


NevermindNevermind

2010-10-31 09:14:22

Thank's for telling me about unity man! I've always wanted to try making games since I was like 6!


James-RJames-R

2010-10-31 07:50:04

"no, its an engine geared towards games in general, not JUST 3D games. All kind of games, you could do pixel games in this too.

Check out "Paper Moon" if you want, that's all 2D and looks pretty sweet."

The target audience for this program/engine is generally for those looking to create 3d games not the opposite, I'm sure this thing isn't like a Saturn.

You still didn't answer my question, I didn't ask if it is possible to create 2d games but how is the creation process of 2d games in unity superior to that of flash.

"also, who says i have no experience with unity? I'm part of a local indie game development community led by Alec Holowka of Infinite ammo, most of the games made with them is in Unity."

Just because you are part of a community in which unity is used doesn't mean you yourself have vast experience of unity itself which is what i was implying.

JordanD responds:

That's true, i don't have vast experience with unity, i'm just familiar with it.

And i say unity is better at 2D gaming simply because you can do MORE with it. There are many limitations with flash that can be overcome with unity, more advanced FX, depths can be more accurate, shading, just stuff like that i find.


CopperhellCopperhell

2010-10-30 12:42:21

Oh, and also,sorry for double post but i had unity downloaded but i never opened it. And now i say "f**kin hell man, i shoulda be wasting all my 23 hours to this shido". Thanks for (mabye) opening a new door to this rusty hall ;)


CopperhellCopperhell

2010-10-30 12:38:34

It seems like people is very happy where they are right now. Unity and HTML5 can bring in better experience but it seems not much people is up to take the risk. Hell man, I think its cuz we are lazy :P :P :P And i saw u only thanked to shadowgamers reply. Your broke my heart bro T_T

JordanD responds:

Lol i think cuz he was like the first to not flame me in a reply so i was like "yay! 1 guy's not a spaz" thanks for the reply too ;)

yeah, people are just deadset in their flash comfort zone, which is too bad, cuz while its good, there are much better options on the horizon. It'd be like buying a hummer when an electric hummer comes out in a year, or something like that.


FelixColgraveFelixColgrave

2010-10-30 07:52:47

I'm not saying Unity isn't better, I'm inclined to agree with you on that. And like I said, it will effect commercial games, and many artists and programmers will move across to it. What I mean is that Flash doesn't necessarily "need to die" as a result. I personally don't plan on sticking with the one program my whole life, but plenty of people will use it still in the same way plenty of people use MSPaint. Unity will make a big splash, and Flash won't have the same empire of everything that it has right now. but from the perspective of Newgrounds users, who are mostly independent artists and game makers, we will use whatever the hell we want regardless. I understand the point your making is the effect Unity is going to have on web gaming as a whole and not on individual users, I'm just saying "Flash needs to die" is a brash statement. It's kinda like saying chimpanzees should all die because humans are better at problem solving. We are indeed better at problem solving, and our numbers as a result have greatly overwhelmed those of chimpanzees, but that doesn't mean it's no longer worthwhile for chimps to exist.

JordanD responds:

I agree and acknowledge that flash doesn't NEED to die, for things to get better. The reason i write that though, is because Adobe doesn't treat flash like a gaming program, to them its all about "web content" and stuff, so it's not gaming specific.

What's going to happen to flash when HTML5 takes over on the web, it will be a better web experience, but i'd like to see what Adobe says when they start losing the web developer market, will they admit "okay, we can focus on the gaming aspect of flash" or drop it altogether? Maybe some third option..


ShadowGamer2ShadowGamer2

2010-10-29 21:36:19

hmm, i see where you're coming from and i agree, flash will die, it won't be soon, hell we might not get to see it, but it will happen. the reason unity will never be too popular now is well, flash is sort of like the "every man's" software, anyone can pick it up and animate/code, and get better over time. with a program like unity, you will need some experience to use it, since it's so complicated (err, i assume, i don't really know much about unity) well, either way, you've made some good points, and people should really stop saying flash will never die, cause it will.

JordanD responds:

Flash's lifespan is determined by how the community uses it. For example, if Newgrounds or any other internet "web game" sites take another (for example) 5 years to start implementing Unity, then it'll probably be another 10-15 years before Unity really hits mainstream, if Unity was implemented into these big sites tomorrow, then it would be much sooner. Kind of a "general awareness" thing.

I think its fact that we will see the death of flash, or at least, flash as we know it. Perhaps it'll find its own use different from what its currently used for.

But yeah, i like how flash is an every-mans software, being able to pick it up and make movies, games, websites, all that jazz. But now it'll soon come to the point of "If you want to make complex games, go Unity, if you want to make amazing websites, go HTML5, brilliant cartoons? Toon Boom, After Effects and Photoshop. Flash isn't the "best" at any of these, but its merit was that it COULD do them all. I don't see flash evolving with the rest of them though. :)

Thanks for the reply!


ProottalfainProottalfain

2010-10-29 19:35:51

"It can also produce browser games that use the Unity web player plugin, supported on Mac and Windows." Says Wikipedia

Am I the only one who sees something is clearly missing?
The point in switching from Flash to HTML5 is that it's not bound to a company such as Adobe... Which means it's super-duper compatible. If Unity replaces Flash, we're still stuck with the problem of poor Linux support (or in Unity's case, absent Linux support).

Flash sucks in Linux, but at least it exists...

JordanD responds:

Because Linux and Mac both use OpenGL for graphics, i'm sure exporting to Linux works OK with Unity. Even if its not, i'm pretty sure that the 93% of the world that uses mac and PC won't really care all THAT much even if linux didn't get it. I know Mac's always used to be late with getting new stuff but nobody cared cuz most people use PC's.

Besides, i'm sure it would be really easy to make a linux plugin for unity, again just cuz they're both OpenGL


James-RJames-R

2010-10-29 19:32:12

So let me get this straight.. A engine geared towards 3D games which is know to have to use non traditional methods to create 2D games is better at making 2d games then an engine geared towards 2D because you saw a fan game made with it but have no actual personal experience with it what so ever.....k

how much is jobs paying you? seriously...

(Updated ) JordanD responds:

no, its an engine geared towards games in general, not JUST 3D games. All kind of games, you could do pixel games in this too.

Check out "Paper Moon" if you want, that's all 2D and looks pretty sweet.

also, who says i have no experience with unity? I'm part of a local indie game development community led by Alec Holowka of Infinite ammo, most of the games made with them is in Unity.

and finally, flash did NOTHING wrong, i have absolutely NOTHING against it. I'm just not super clingy to a program.


AgumonkidAgumonkid

2010-10-29 18:16:53

lol i remembe that sonic fan game!

JordanD responds:

SO fun hey? Killed sonic 4 easy


LionelionLionelion

2010-10-29 17:40:43

sorry for the double post, but if possible, could you provide a link to that sonic game or tell us where to play it?

JordanD responds:

It's downloadable if you google "Sonic Fan Remix" for both mac and PC


LionelionLionelion

2010-10-29 17:38:49

is that sonic game seriously fan made? that could seriously pass off for an actual console game, damn!
maybe it is flash's time...

JordanD responds:

Flash is peaking right now, being used in like 95% of computers worldwide (save for iPod/Pad's). It'll sloowlly start declining in the next year or so though.


CopperhellCopperhell

2010-10-29 17:04:09

Well, then there is no problem. I can't see the thing you sent out there, so don't just yell me i should. lol. Also everyone knows 3D will one day replace 2D. So i don't think you need to write this here, so with that theory i thought you were saying we should stop these in a close timeline ^o^. What not, brother, lets rock together! (^o^)

JordanD responds:

I didn't yell you should.. And the reason i wrote that because people cling to flash, and the longer people cling to it the longer it'll take for people to move away from it and start using newer, better systems. For example, look at how everyone is freaking out at me :P

I love flash, I use it daily, I'm focusing on learning AS3 now. I'm just open to saying "Yeah, it's peaking now, gonna start declining in about a year, and 10 years from now it'll be probably gone almost completely"..

*cue rocking out*


NeoncrotchNeoncrotch

2010-10-29 16:51:41

WHY ISN'T SONIC FAST? HE'S AWFULLY SLOW IN UNITY.

JordanD responds:

hah


PENGI9909PENGI9909

2010-10-29 16:38:23

i just hope ipods/iphones/ipads get it before it dies.


AngrypitfiendAngrypitfiend

2010-10-29 16:12:45

Scenery Porn anyone?


CopperhellCopperhell

2010-10-29 16:03:34

Unity eh.... Well you don't have to scream "leave flash". In future that will happen too but for now we can't do what you say. Reasons=

1. %80 of the internet gaming is set on 2d games and %20 being 3d. Because of that many people work in 2d things so it won't be that easy to change d's.

2. There are people who can't even use Flash (I am a good sample!) and unity is something more advanced. if we do change into Unity games-movies (if possible to make movies too) the number of artists and the good submissions will go down. Also if we are not able to make movies with Unity it will further lower submission number.

3. The people own PC's (any computer, laptop or desktop, including Mac and other systems) with 2.75 GB RAM in overall and no many people have a good internet connection. The PC's are not able to bear much of Unity's right now, and internet connection thing will affect online games. (P.S. as long as i know Unity ONLY makes you online games, can be wrong tough) Beleive in me, Unity won't make us come out with better, faster games, it will be better graphics, sucking fps, boo games. Your PC might be bearing it out but %57 of people in NG won't.

4. You CAN animate in 3d with flash too, it just takes time. And im not talking about giving a 3d effect with forward-backward trick, i mean REAL 3d. You don't know what a real advanced Flash can bear out. Flash has a wide variety of use, it has parts where even half-brain people can do and it has parts you need a genius.

5. Unity won't be that good for making 2d games, beleive me. More advanced we go, more confussion we will have.

6. NG has already got a good system on-the-go. If we allow Unity some changes in the site will be required.

In short, don't fight it. Unity is a good program for experienced people to be allowed for use, but if we totally remove flash it will open up chaos. Unity won't bring in better experience, you see, after XP everyone expected a great system from windows but Vista was a mine-bank! Hell, you can even give this as an example. Whatever. Flash has a world-wide domination over the world. It will be good to allow Unity but Flash musn't be forgotten. Note that Abode will not like such a change, NO other animating company will. Unity won't stay as the only advanced game-making engine, as more will come.

Short and what, Unity and more-to-come programs like Unity will one day rule the world as it is here in Flash, but it must be a slow change, overall must take around 20-50 years, eveloution is a slow process, no mather what evolves, either internet or animals.

JordanD responds:

....yeah.. exactly.. you're just going over my points :P

I'm not saying flash needs to die TODAY, but it will die, and 3D gaming will replace it, leaving HTML5 for websites and what not. Flash is at its peak right now, and will probably peak for another year, and then sloowlly begin its decline.

And for the record, Unity is better at making 2D games than flash is, check out that sonic vid i posted above.


mindmaster123mindmaster123

2010-10-29 14:54:32

Well as a student of 3D animation, testers Unity and self-taught in HTML5 can say with sincerity that flash is not even close to his death HTML5 is not a language for creating applications is purely a language for web development, you can not even think about how fucking hard it is to make a HMTL5 choreography in flash is rather a matter of hours. That if you can create very complex things like this to post some time ago.

http://mindmaster123.newgrounds.com/n ews/post/513190

While using Unity is a great program has a long way to be as accepted as a flash. Created games on these platforms are very heavy and a computer with low requirements could barely move, the Uniya plugins is a RAM-eating monsters early versions were only for the most daring acts but have been improving over time and with the arrival hardware acceleration of the possibilities could be higher.

No doubt some day fall flash with the development of EDGE a tool capable of solving the problem that I explained on HTML5 will look more freedom and if properly applied FHTML5 (Fluid HTML5) will see amazing things.

JordanD responds:

I didn't say HTML5 would take over flash, i'm saying websites will become html5 driven while games will be unity/flash3D driven, rather than flash doing all these interactive web things which is much more efficient in HTML5. Such as embedding video


EmroxEmrox

2010-10-29 14:32:02

Say it ain't so, Joe

...ordan.


sirjeffofshortsirjeffofshort

2010-10-29 13:36:44

Although I don't agree that flash NEEDS to die I think that throughout history the most successful people, companies and societies are those who were able to adopt and embrace new ideas and technologies. Choosing one side of the argument and sticking to it just seems ignorant. Really your best bet is to expand your skill set as much as possible in all arenas, then you're best prepared for any possible outcome and you are able to make the best possible content without limitation.

JordanD responds:

Actually, i was on the other side up until last night, where i started thinking about the BIG picture, rather than a closed minded "i love flash" side. The big picture is, flash has helped the web get more interactive and visual, and now technology is allowing us to take it further, but not really on the flash platform.

And it's not ignorant anyways, because its only right now that i'm learning AS3, i'm not giving up on Flash anytime soon, i'm just saying its an inevitable, but slow process.


NayhanNayhan

2010-10-29 12:57:02

I hate how they're making flash more for design/web stuff, that's why so many animators still use Flash 8. If unity ends up taking over then my 4 years of slowly learning As will have been wasted...

JordanD responds:

As i wrote to ZRB, it'll be a long process, not an overnight thing. I'm working on learning Actionscript just now, and i'm cool with it :P


zrbzrb

2010-10-29 12:24:08

Unity is impressive, but Flash isn't ready to die yet :P

JordanD responds:

No, not YET. that's the key word. It's going to be a LONG process, i'm still learning Actionscript in the mean time, but flash is essentially peaking right now in terms of usefullness on the web. It will slowly begin to decline in use over the next 5 years, and be like the ps2 (still around but not really) after that i believe. (It also depends on how fast people and websites are to start incorporating new shit.


nmb910nmb910

2010-10-29 12:16:11

Check out Away3d.com/ Some people have made a complete 3d engine (like unreal tournament maps) out of flash. ;0


Evil-DogEvil-Dog

2010-10-29 10:42:07

Flash will run accelerated 3d pretty soon, you just didn't read Aarron's link
HTML5 WILL be used by websites, right now it's buggy, slow and beta at best
With all it's programming resources, wide spread use and associated softwares (like flex), flash, as3, is not going to, nor should, die
Why would one software die because another can do something similar or even better.
There's not only one music software. It's pretty dumb to say one thing should dissapear because an alternative exists. Especially when you don't have all the facts and just see one video and go post an over excited and uninformed post on a flash website haha
Oh Jordan...good thing I like you cause I would punch you in the nuts at the next meet...I might still do it though haha

JordanD responds:

Regardless of running 3D, adobe still doesn't treat flash like a platform for gaming, it's all about "Web" with them. If they suddenly shifted and dropped web (not yet, but as HTML5 came in) and moved to basically "Flash as a gaming platform, maybe animation too", then yeah, i think it'd do better. Problem is Adobe almost refuses to acknowledge that. (at least before 3D flash)


StarogreStarogre

2010-10-29 10:35:21

how do you make spritesheets in unity??????????

JordanD responds:

No idea son :P Probably separate and bring them in externally.


JazLyteJazLyte

2010-10-29 09:50:05

Oh Jordan, you just keep talking...

JordanD responds:

You wait and seeeee


kmaukmau

2010-10-29 08:53:40

I don't necessarily agree with everything you wrote but I too think Newgrounds will need to accept submissions made by other programs like Toonboom sooner or later.


TystarrTystarr

2010-10-29 08:43:58

Flash will evolve before it ever dies.

JordanD responds:

It's already starting to evolve, i really hope it evolves right :P


citricsquidcitricsquid

2010-10-29 08:23:54

lol


BeamShankBeamShank

2010-10-29 07:52:02

You're talking as if Flash is only used because it's the only thing we can post stuff on the web with. Television studios use it too, bro.

JordanD responds:

That's because it's available, but adobe doesn't TREAT Flash like an animation program broseph.


VidGameDudeVidGameDude

2010-10-29 07:34:14

lol i've use unity all the time.
i upload my crap with another guy i work with to create simple environments.

not much there but real time on a html.
its still pretty freakin impressive though.

l8s


lenkobiscuitlenkobiscuit

2010-10-29 07:28:09

its the artist not the tools etc etc etc etc

JordanD responds:

Omgomgomg you didn't read my post


FelixColgraveFelixColgrave

2010-10-29 06:45:10

Who gives a shit? Some people will make the shift to new programs, while others won't. People still make decent art in MSPaint. Of course some people won't make the change because they're scared of leaving their comfort zone, but if you're a good artist it shouldn't matter, and you should've been relying on your own skills rather than what the program can do for you. I can't really say what's better for programmers, but I think it's fair to say that being able to adapt is an important step. I imagine this could have a major change on commercial games, but independent artists will continue to use whatever they're comfortable with.
In the end the software doesn't make you what you are. And if it does, well, sucks to be you. If tomorrow Flash and After Effects disappeared and were replaced with a new program that could only do frame-by-frame animation, Sam T would kill himself.

JordanD responds:

mmm...kinda missing the point..

I'm saying Flash helped the internet get multimedia everything while our technology got caught up, and much like how 3D soon replaced 2D movies, and bitmap console games, it will soon replace the internet games. And it's in fact, better for making even more complex 2D games than flash is.


LDAFLDAF

2010-10-29 06:32:27

I played a few games on the site, and I must say I'm impressed. However, I don't think the game you linked to was the best example, that game was pretty close to what flash can do. You should've linked to Time Donkey, it's much more awe-inspiring. I still don't think flash has much to worry about though, it'll adapt with time... :P


PiGPENPiGPEN

2010-10-29 05:04:52

The problem with Unity is the higher specs needed to not lag like hell when using it as a viewer or developer.
I'm not even a 2nd/3rd worlder and every Unity game i've played lags like crazy for me.


JohnnyUtahJohnnyUtah

2010-10-29 04:48:16

*FACEPALM*

JordanD responds:

>:D


IS1508IS1508

2010-10-29 03:59:27

Here's a video for you to watch...

Is this relevant to your post? I think so.
http://blogs.adobe.com/jnack/2010/10/
adobe-demos-flash-to-html5-conversion -tool.html


ScorpionReturn5ScorpionReturn5

2010-10-29 03:55:48

The fucking controls on many of these medal games are what need to die.


TooDAMNMuchTooDAMNMuch

2010-10-29 03:22:24

that would only lead to more "mainstream" games whose quality are on par with 1c (the worst developer in the universe) and their retardation.

if you want to make webpage games, then use flash or unity, whichever, just.... say no to dumbing down other platforms in the process


SpazkidSpazkid

2010-10-29 03:12:00

But its possible to do that type of stuff in flash. Its just a matter of coding.

JordanD responds:

Yeah, but animating will get more advanced. Cuz adobe doesn't treat flash as an animation program, animators can turn to something like toon boom and after effects, and make much more complex things, much simpler.


SickDeathFiendSickDeathFiend

2010-10-29 03:00:15

looks interesting! just another reason for me to start learning 3d stuff :P


W-P-SW-P-S

2010-10-29 02:33:37

can't we just have flash AND this stuff?

JordanD responds:

You'll see, flash was just supporting multimedia on the web while our technology got fast and good enough to support videos embedded in the browser, fully 3D rendered games, and stuff like that, Flash has done nothing wrong, but it will soon slowly die off in favor of better programs.


KaggenKaggen

2010-10-29 02:33:02

cuz the times they are(a) changin


Skeik-SpriteSkeik-Sprite

2010-10-29 02:27:10

If you really feel that Unity is the future** then you should develop for it.


Skeik-SpriteSkeik-Sprite

2010-10-29 02:26:25

I'm not agreeing that Flash should be on it's way out in any sort of time frame though. I think that it does exactly what it's supposed to. It's lightweight, it's simplicity saves time and money when creating websites and since 96% of everyone has it there's no worries about compatibility.

Sure, other programs do run hardware and will run faster and better, but could an animator who knows nothing about graphical programming put together a website or a game in these programs? Flash is perfect for the web.

If you really feel that Unity is then you should develop for it. People also said Silverlight was the future because it ran off of the .Net platform but no one took the initiative to do anything with it whatsoever.

JordanD responds:

Yes, but with Unity and HTML5, it'll basically be "Better, faster games" and HTML5 will be "Better, and faster websites", no longer embedding low quality vids in flash, now you can get better higher quality video even smoother.

Also, I dunno what i'm going to do, because i'm an animator, and Unity is for games, perhaps animations will convert more into ToonBoom, Photoshop and After effects, which is kind of where i'm headed.


Skeik-SpriteSkeik-Sprite

2010-10-29 02:15:41

Flash is not going to die because of 3 things.

1: It's easy to use. Anyone with half a brain can use Flash to make a banner or an ad or a simple game. Actionscript is one of the easiest languages to dive headfirst into, and the Flash IDE is very simple. While it's not the best and it's not the fastest it's very slow learning curve draws people to it.

2: It's very widespread. What are the numbers? Like 96% of every personal computer in the world has Flash installed. It's a universal platform that almost everyone has access to. It's hard to recreate that kind of market dominance, especially when not everyone knows how to program graphics from hardware, or work in a pure code environment.

3: There are tons and tons of applications already made it in Flash that would be very costly to reproduce in another language and environment.

As far as the next several years, Flash is here to stay.

JordanD responds:

Yes, next several, I'm not saying this shift is going to happen overnight. But it's stupid to say that maybe 10 years from now, flash should be well on its way out to be replaced by Unity. I'm just saying we should allow Unity on NG, that'll raise awareness, more games will be made in Unity, maybe start this change sooner. :P


HulalaooHulalaoo

2010-10-29 02:12:41

omg, u are so retard

JordanD responds:

omg you're narrow minded


DonkeysBazookaDonkeysBazooka

2010-10-29 01:58:06

looks like i hit "leave it."

damn, i was really rooting for backspacing it. oh well, maybe my luck will be better next time